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Politics.811 |
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Would President Obama Reinstitute the Military Draft?
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{Politics.811.1}: Dan Raphael {dravazed} Wed, 17 Sep 2008 09:16:43 EDT (HTML)
National service forum at Columbia University Obama calls for US
military mobilization By Patrick Martin 13 September 2008
In remarks that clearly pointed toward the restoration of the
military draft under an Obama administration, the Democratic candidate
said Thursday night that his job as president would include demanding
that the American people recognize an “obligation” for military
service. “If we are going into war, then all of us go, not just some,”
Senator Barack Obama declared.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/sep2008/obam-s13_prn.shtml
Some people have been touting Obama as a "peace candidate" (except
for the war in Afghanistan, our bases around the world, the War on
Terror, etc.). So...do you think he'd activate Selective Service?
{Politics.811.2}: Arne {plotinus} Wed, 17 Sep 2008 10:12:11 EDT (9 lines)
Nothing focused the attention of the electorate during the Viet Nam
war like the possibility that they would, as Country Joe put it , "Be
the first one on your block to have your boy come home in a box."
The harshest criticism of the cretin Baby Bush during his campaign
was that he had used privilege to escape going to war.
That resonates at the Walmart level of this society more than a
million Maureen Dowd columns.
{Politics.811.3}: Gary - mutual fundamentalist {paracletus} Wed, 17 Sep 2008 10:20:12 EDT (4 lines)
I think that if thee were a military draft there would be less chance
of frivolous wars. the threat of active widespread opposition would
make the government conduct even more bellicose propaganda before
going to war.
{Politics.811.4}: David R. Kurtzman {drkmelrose} Wed, 17 Sep 2008 10:20:59 EDT (19 lines)
It might be a clear and direct path toward peace.
Let the sons and daughters of the powerful get blown up, shot up,
maimed, and brain-damaged for a while, and see what happens. Let them
come home to live in the mom-and-pop mansions, and be in the way. Get
rid of all the phony "deferments", so that absolutely everyone is
vulnerable, equally. (Equality of treatment does not entail identity
of treatment, NQBTW.)
If Cheney's heart is so weak that he can't stand on his feet for
longer than five minutes -- so that the Veep "debate" had to be done
sitting at a table -- then he can sit at a desk in the quartermaster
corps, sorting widgets. Near the front. So that his fat ass will be
up for grabs too.
richard millstone nixon got rid of the draft in favor of a "volunteer
military" precisely because when more people's butts were vulnerable
to service, more people took to the streets and their angry faces
showed up on television.
{Politics.811.5}: Jeanette DeMain {cybernettie} Wed, 17 Sep 2008 10:23:59 EDT (3 lines)
The problem is that there will never be a draft where there are no
deferments and everyone is treated equally. It's just not going to
happen.
{Politics.811.6}: David R. Kurtzman {drkmelrose} Wed, 17 Sep 2008 10:35:05 EDT (11 lines)
Maybe no system will treat everyone equally, but there are degrees in
these matters, and improvement can be sought.
It's one thing to get rid of the phony deferments and another to get
rid of all the deferments.
Here's an example of a *de facto* phony deferment: By an act of
Congress, all branches of the District of Columbia National Guard were
required to remain in or around Washington to defend the Nation's
Capital. They could not be deployed elsewhere (except, of course, by
means of some other act of Congress.)
{Politics.811.7}: Arne {plotinus} Wed, 17 Sep 2008 11:13:07 EDT (1 line)
Charlie Wrangel has pushed for a draft. He is "distracted" at the moment.
{Politics.811.8}: Dan Griffith {xenophon} Wed, 17 Sep 2008 12:24:17 EDT (23 lines)
When I was young and in the army I saw the military draft in action up
close.
I saw several people with good connections, and privileges of wealth
make some phone calls and change their whole army careers.
When I reported to my basic training company one boy was the son of a
senior vice president of Hughes Aircraft Corp. He was immediately
given a temporary promotion to corporal before anybody even had a
conversation with him to discover if he was a moron or not. He then
proceded to lord it over the rest of us like a major general. He was
later assigned to infantry which in those days was an immediate ticket
to Vietnam. he made a phone call and was re-assigned to the national
guard near his home.
That is only one instance.
So in my opinion a military draft will not be a vehicle to treating
all Americans equally. Good connections, and wealth will always have
their way and avoid the real operation of equality.
George Bush, and Dick (I had other priorities) Cheney, are classic
examples.
{Politics.811.9}: Between Korea and Vietnam {texlib} Wed, 17 Sep 2008 12:33:30 EDT (HTML)
I only had one close call. I was called up during the Cuban "missile
crisis" in 1962. I remember
it well as I was required to drive 100 miles north to South Bend, in
order to catch a bus from the draft bureau office to ride a bus 140
miles south to Indianapolis, to stand in line all day in my underwear
briefs.
Then I had to ride that bus back to South Bend, in order to drive my
car back south, arriving at my frat house after midnight with a
physics mid-term the next morning at 8 a.m. Do you think my draft
board would allow me to just drive directly to the physical facility?
NO! Do you think my physics
prof would let me take the "make-up" instead? NO! He said I should
have been prepared two days before the test! I wasn't and got a "D"
that helped to remove me from the pre-med program within a year as I
had lost my "B"
average (and full ride scholarship) that was the minimum required by
medical schools then. I transferred to the U. of Houston School of
Architecture! So that draft physical contributed to a life-changing
event for me.
I remember I scored high on all of the tests and in an interview, an
officer told me that since I was pre-med, not to worry in case of war
as they would wait and "get me"
when I had finished med school as I would be much more valuable to the
military then! But by 1966, when they did begin drafting for Vietnam,
I was over 26 and "too old" to be of service!
{Politics.811.10}: {texlib} Wed, 17 Sep 2008 12:41:38 EDT (HTML)
I remember riding with a good high school friend on the bus to
Indianapolis to our draft physical. I remember being shocked when we
had to take off our clothes to see him standing there in a full
body-brace. He handed an Army doctor a letter from his family doctor
(also his dad's golfing partner) describing his "back injury" due to
lifting concrete blocks. His father was a wealthy contractor who
built service stations for major oil companies across the Midwest. My
friend got his pilot's license at age 16 as his father owned a Cessna.
I had never known him to actually "work" and when I returned home
over Thanksgiving vacation, he was "well" enough to play flag football
with the rest of us.
He married a girl whose father was a funeral home owner and he
inherited that business. A few years later he helped to perform
funerals for young men from our community who were killed in Vietnam.
{Politics.811.11}: Jeanette DeMain {cybernettie} Wed, 17 Sep 2008 12:44:04 EDT (6 lines)
Wow.
Well, he has to live with that. Is that punishment enough? I don't
know, but I think it would be pretty hard to live with the knowledge
that you had done that, and to know that there are others out there
who know it too.
{Politics.811.12}: Dan Raphael {dravazed} Wed, 17 Sep 2008 12:59:25 EDT (HTML)
So...do you think Prez O would reinstitute it? Should he?
{Politics.811.13}: T.J. McGovern {tj2} Wed, 17 Sep 2008 14:25:29 EDT (16 lines)
Has to live with that??
Whatever makes you think it would cause him a moment's distress?
I have stories of friends who escaped the draft by marrying.
Another's father was a bartender who was acquainted with a power
company executive who gave my friend a job in a "sensitive industry"
to make him ineligible for service. Yet another's father was an
officer in the NG and the governor's pilot. That one secured a spot in
the NG and went on to become a general and the head of the Guard for
many years. At least he stayed on and served. The other guy quit the
power company job as soon as he got his deferment.
None of these people were rich or influential on any broad scale,
they just had one friend or relative with a connection. It will be no
different the next time.
{Politics.811.14}: texlib {texlib} Wed, 17 Sep 2008 14:28:11 EDT (HTML)
I don't think Obama would reinstitute the draft unless we were in a
world war as was Wilson in 1917 during WWI and FDR at the start of
WWII. Lincoln commissioned the draft in 1863 for the Union but many of
the wealthy draftees purchased "cannon fodder" to go in their places.
My father was drafted in February 1944 at age 33 with three children
as the U.S. had to scrape the bottom of the bucket to meet the demand.
He was bald and
overweight and most in his barracks were 18 year-old kids who called
him "Dad", coming to him for counseling when they would receive their
"Dear John" letters.
{Politics.811.15}: T.J. McGovern {tj2} Wed, 17 Sep 2008 14:32:20 EDT (5 lines)
I decided to enlist in the Air Force, and when my draft notice came,
the recruiter just signed me up and told me to tell them at the
physical that I was Air Force.
That's how I evaded being drafted into the infantry.
{Politics.811.16}: Red {redleader} Wed, 17 Sep 2008 14:38:08 EDT (3 lines)
I agree Obama isn't likely to do such a thing. Few polticians
would, and it would be very difficult short of a full scale world
war.
{Politics.811.17}: {texlib} Wed, 17 Sep 2008 14:58:40 EDT (HTML)
My brother-in-law got his "selective service" letter shortly after the
beginning of the Korean "conflict" and recognizing the return address,
didn't open it but immediately visited the closest Navy recruiter.
{Politics.811.18}: Dan Raphael {dravazed} Wed, 17 Sep 2008 16:51:21 EDT (HTML)
As coincidence has it, I'm reading (bad habit of mine) a book, just
out:
Democracy's Prisoner: Eugene V. Debs, the Great War, and the
Right to Dissent, by Ernest Freeberg. Debs was one of my first
and lifelong heroes, which is what attracted me to the title. Also,
the fact that our freedoms have been so curtailed and promise to
shrink further as the Empire's wars continue on and on...
Well, I was hoping folks would weigh in less with anecdotes and more
on the issue, inasmuch as I am reading about a significant part of
what happens when you institute a draft. People resist, people evade,
people get put in prison...it's complicated. As one whose political
life effectively began and was formed by the then-rising war against
the Vietnamese people, I have vivid memories of what "the draft"
entails.
Oh, for those who want something personal: I was one of the very
lucky few, receiving a Conscientious Objector deferment to serve in a
civilian capacity (Friends Hospital, in Philadelphia).
{Politics.811.19}: Michael Cerkowski {michael33} Wed, 17 Sep 2008 17:32:49 EDT (4 lines)
You can't devote a topic to such a specific question with little
but speculation to answer it, and not expect topic drift. If the topic
were "What Would An Obama Administration Really Look Like?" it might
do better.
{Politics.811.20}: Jeanette DeMain {cybernettie} Wed, 17 Sep 2008 17:33:00 EDT (6 lines)
<Has to live with that??
Whatever makes you think it would cause him a moment's distress?>
I guess I'm just assuming that a normal person with a conscience
would find it troubling to live with. My bad. ;-)
{Politics.811.21}: T.J. McGovern {tj2} Wed, 17 Sep 2008 18:21:56 EDT (23 lines)
I'm not sure how we were supposed to weigh in. I don't want a draft,
I think it makes it even easier to start a war. While the priviledged
will evade and avoid, there will still be a much bigger pool of cannon
fodder from which to draw, and considering why we fight wars today, I
couldn't support it as "serving your country" which once I might have
done.
Might an Obama administration reinstitute a draft? He has already
said he will escalate the war in Afghanistan, the push to attack Iran
will not die with the end of the Bush administration, and there will
always be ample opportunity to continue the expansion of empire, so
why not? The Bush cabal has so thinly stretched the volunteer military
that they have essentially drafted thousands who thought their service
was ended, and they were recalled. I think they were being pressured
to institute a draft, but would not because they don't believe that
anyone but the poor and minorities should have to die in wars. Just as
slaveholders sent their slaves to fight and die in the civil war to
help guarantee their captivity, so the Bushies send the blacks and
Hispanics whom they keep in poverty to die for their oil profits. I
think Obama would see that a draft was a way to spread the misery
around, but I would rather have a president who would end our foreign
adventures rather than simply increasing the size of the troop force
sent out to conquer the world.
{Politics.811.22}: Dan Raphael {dravazed} Wed, 17 Sep 2008 19:13:25 EDT (HTML)
That last sentence should be flashed in scarlet letters in front of
every voting-age American. Bulls-eye.
{Politics.811.23}: furryriverrat {riverrat} Wed, 17 Sep 2008 21:49:41 EDT (20 lines)
Politics.812.1}: Dan Raphael {dravazed} Wed, 17 Sep 2008 09:17:19 EDT
(HTML)
National service forum at Columbia University Obama calls for US
military mobilization By Patrick Martin 13 September 2008
In remarks that clearly pointed toward the restoration of the military
draft under an Obama administration, the Democratic candidate said
Thursday night that his job as president would include demanding that
the American people recognize an “obligation” for military service.
“If we are going into war, then all of us go, not just some,” Senator
Barack Obama declared.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/sep2008/obam-s13_prn.shtml
Some people have been touting Obama as a "peace candidate" (except for
the war in Afghanistan, our bases around the world, the War on Terror,
etc.). So...do you think he'd activate Selective Service?
--------
{Politics.811.24}: Dan Raphael {dravazed} Wed, 17 Sep 2008 21:55:19 EDT (HTML)
Um...are you trying to tell me something, oh river vole?
{Politics.811.25}: furryriverrat {riverrat} Wed, 17 Sep 2008 22:20:27 EDT (2 lines)
nope, you posted that in the topic you asked me to delete and I didn't
want it to be lost when I did so.
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