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Nowhere land


{Nature_and_Environment.39.4}: Kai Hagen {kai} Fri, 01 Apr 2005 19:56:08 CST (HTML)

Thanks for that link.

Interesting perspective on an all-too-familiar problem.


{Nature_and_Environment.39.5}: Katie {katetwo} Sat, 02 Apr 2005 13:20:39 CST (6 lines)

Very interesting article.  Just a couple of weeks ago, I read one in
the Toronto Star advocating denser housing within the city core,
Austrian-style.  I liked that idea.  The current Ontario govt's aim
is supposedly to curb the growing sprawl outside of the city.  Hope
they stick to their plan.  Those "communities" in Arizona sound like
something from a horror movie to me.


{Nature_and_Environment.39.6}: {kai} Sun, 03 Apr 2005 08:20:10 CDT (HTML)

And there are versions of that happening all over the country.


{Nature_and_Environment.39.7}: Suzanne Griffith {sggriffith} Sun, 03 Apr 2005 13:49:12 CDT (3 lines)

There's a new development trend of high rises being built along all
shorelines, so nobody can see the water except the residents of the
new buildings.


{Nature_and_Environment.39.8}: Tonu Aun {tonu} Sun, 03 Apr 2005 14:27:04 CDT (2 lines)

This happenened some time ago in Toronto Suzanne. In many places one
has to go past the 'private' property to see lake Ontario. Sad and wrong.


{Nature_and_Environment.39.9}: Rich Mason {richpix} Sun, 03 Apr 2005 19:42:07 CDT (HTML)

A good piece by James Howard Kunstler in Orion Magazine: Man in Nature: The Fiasco of Suburbia

I haven't read any of his books, but they're on my list of must-reads.


{Nature_and_Environment.39.10}: {wren1111} Mon, 04 Apr 2005 12:48:13 CDT (0 lines)
{erased by wren1111 Mon, 04 Apr 2005 12:48:31 CDT}


{Nature_and_Environment.39.11}: .... {wren1111} Mon, 04 Apr 2005 12:49:05 CDT (HTML)

Oh you must read Kunstler . He is a scream to read. Passionate and deadly funny and right. He has a blog of sorts too. It has a rather inelegant name, one that he uses to describe sprawl.

Clusterfuck Nation



{Nature_and_Environment.39.12}: Rich Mason {richpix} Mon, 04 Apr 2005 21:11:18 CDT (1 line)

Thanks for the blog link.  I will read it regularly.


{Nature_and_Environment.39.13}: {david1961} Fri, 08 Apr 2005 03:06:23 CDT (9 lines)

Hi. I'm an A'net refugee that somehow washed up on this Nowhere land
forum. I was reading Kunstlers' "long emergency" and I don't know if
it'll happen in my lifetime but it seems unavoidable. It's something I
think I could embrace actually.

"The End of Suburbia" also deals with what will happen when oil
resources are depleted.


{Nature_and_Environment.39.14}: Suzanne Griffith {sggriffith} Fri, 08 Apr 2005 03:11:31 CDT (5 lines)

I don't think most adult working Americans are unaware that there's a
problem. It's just that they feel helpless to address it. Their time
is filled with commuting, work, children - when and where is the time
and energy to fix huge problems? I think there is more of a national
depression than a national mania, as Kunstler suggests.


{Nature_and_Environment.39.15}: {david1961} Fri, 08 Apr 2005 03:56:22 CDT (10 lines)

That's interesting. I think they may sense that something is wrong but
it doesn't really register. Everyone seems so self-involved and
nothing really gets addressed until disaster strikes. I think older
folks who came from the ecology generation of the 60s and 70s are
aware of our problems (which is probably the cause of much depression)
but so many people are in denial today. I think many people think that
technological advances will solve everything so there's no need to worry.

I've always thought that the water supply would be our downfall but
maybe it'll be a combination of a lot of things.


{Nature_and_Environment.39.16}: Suzanne Griffith {sggriffith} Fri, 08 Apr 2005 13:27:59 CDT (16 lines)

Welcome to the Cafe, by the way!

I think the mind of the average American is more complex than we, as
environmentalists, often tend to think. It's so easy for me to say,
"Well, they just don't care!"

But lately I've been chatting with a lot of working people, and they
are truly stressed for time. The stereotype that they watch TV a lot
is false IMO, at least for people over 30. Most of the women I
encounter watch TV a couple of hours a week at most.

So this TV-watching self-indulgent American so many of us speak of may
be under 30.

I'm wondering how to free up some time for people so they can be more
active in their community and support conservation movements.


{Nature_and_Environment.39.17}: David {david1961} Fri, 08 Apr 2005 15:17:03 CDT (16 lines)

Hi Suzanne and thanks. I guess time management can be a hinderance and
I often feel like I don't get enough sleep. Sometimes I'm just plain
lazy too though. I think most Americans are lazy and complacent. Most
people will tell you they don't watch much TV but what people say and
what people actually do are usually two different things.
Appearances... maintaining an image of what we want to project and
such is very important to people. Image conscious people, that is.

I sometimes wonder about all the time I spend online and if that time
might not be put to more constructive uses.  I'm sure it could. The PC
is the new TV (just more interactive). Even if people had all the time
in the world (which they do, of course) I wonder if they would still
just pursue their own self-interests.

I know I don't make many commitments because I like my "down-time" and
lots of it. There's a bit of the selfish hypocrite in everyone.


{Nature_and_Environment.39.18}: Suzanne Griffith {sggriffith} Fri, 08 Apr 2005 15:22:31 CDT (3 lines)

The PC is my TV, for sure.

OK, I'll give it up.... for an hour or two ;-)


{Nature_and_Environment.39.19}: David {david1961} Fri, 08 Apr 2005 16:00:49 CDT (23 lines)

It's a powerful addiction, imo. I'm from A'net where the new motto is
never give up so don't give it up for too long. Honestly, I sometimes
think I should do without internet access for awhile and wean myself
off of it but I do enjoy conversing with so many intelligent people.
Sometimes I think it only adds to the dis-connection that seems to be
so pervasive today.

Hmmm. Most people I think, as evidenced by the small but growing
simplicity movement, would rather take a "back to nature" route but
they really aren't willing to give up all the modern conveniences we
have. Most of it is probably from social conditioning. It's what's
familiar. Sometimes I think homeless people are the only truly free
people. We have this image of a dirty and mentally unstable homeless
person and to most people, that's what they are. Social dropouts. I
sometimes think they're onto something. They don't use many resources
and they recycle things that most of us throw away.

I wouldn't wish being homeless on anyone but there are elements of
that lifestyle that have a certain appeal. I doubt I'd last very long
in that milieu. Traditional survival skills are a lost art form today
(in the cities and suburbs) and I really don't want to be one  of
those people who start hoarding resources. It will probably reach that
point someday though.


{Nature_and_Environment.39.20}: Tom Elliot {telliot} Fri, 08 Apr 2005 20:29:54 CDT (HTML)

Hi Dave, welcome to my other life...


{Nature_and_Environment.39.21}: David {david1961} Fri, 08 Apr 2005 21:38:12 CDT (2 lines)


{Nature_and_Environment.39.22}: Tom Elliot {telliot} Fri, 08 Apr 2005 22:34:20 CDT (HTML)

Dave, use "" and bookmark it. Access will be with your {david1961} userid and password. The forum is set up so NeverGiveUp is a forum with a list of subforums. The subforums are all the old forums and posts from Alternet. Your old profile, userid and hotlist and won't be there.

Setting up a hotlist is a bit more difficult because of the forum/subforum structure but it can be done fairly easily once you get the hang of it.

NeverGiveUp is now one of the "partner forums" here so you'll also see a list of the other partner forums and a different home page with your hotlist once you get it set up. If you have any questions at all just ask in the Welcome topic for Alternet refugees and I'll help you out.


{Nature_and_Environment.39.23}: David {david1961} Fri, 08 Apr 2005 23:14:28 CDT (4 lines)


{Nature_and_Environment.39.24}: Glen McBeth {glenbob123} Sat, 09 Apr 2005 04:05:44 CDT (1 line)

Hi Tom!


{Nature_and_Environment.39.25}: Lisa Taylor {twosox} Wed, 13 Apr 2005 17:47:55 CDT (9 lines)

david61- there's nothing wrong with liking your down time, its good
for the soul. please don't feel selfish about this. feeling guilty
about downtime is one of society's sicknesses.
regarding under30's being the uncaring about sprawland perhaps other
environmental issues,  I say not the one's I'm meeting at yoga
practice and elsewhere in my town (I"m 45) , Maybe they don't vote,
but they're as a group rather caring and enlightened and respectful
of their environs. I truly feel some hope for the future in some of
these young people.


{Nature_and_Environment.39.26}: ... {wren1111} Sat, 13 May 2006 15:13:14 CDT (HTML)

Unlikely guru has reporter's eye, poet's heart " id=6f528c91-e22b-4b50-8534-f77df04bd80d"


{Nature_and_Environment.39.27}: ... {wren1111} Wed, 07 Jun 2006 04:59:23 CDT (HTML)

What We Choose " t_we_choose.html"


{Nature_and_Environment.39.28}: Suzanne Griffith {sggriffith} Wed, 07 Jun 2006 12:36:45 CDT (2 lines)

Wow! Every word was true. That's one of the best columns I've read in
a long time.


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